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[ACGG POST] Nevermind's TV/Monitor guide.

Discussion in 'Anything Goes' started by Nevermind, Dec 5, 2009.

  1. AcIdC0R3

    AcIdC0R3 ASTRO Private

    Steggy, we seemed to have gotten off on the wrong foot here. When I first posted to this thread it was to inform people that their options wasn't to be limited to just small screen monitors or TV's. That was my intention. I also gave people the information that you failed to give them. My intentions were not to rebut anything you had to say except to also inform people that displays are not limited to perform better at smaller sizes now that LED TV's have entered the game. The newer large screen LED's don't suffer input lag just like the smaller monitors. So now yes, I am rebutting your statement. Don't just give people partial information, give them all the information. Your diagnoses so to speak are one sided. But you know what, it's a debate between me and you. We could go on and on with this. I'm tired of battling it out with you on here. So you go on and give them your one sided information. I'll not post to YOUR thread again. That was my mistake in the first place. If I need to, I'll make my own thread and give the people all the information that they deserve and then people can make up their own mind of what kind or display to buy.

    ...C'est la vie :)
  2. Steggy

    Steggy ASTRO Private

    I would appreciate if you would link to somewhere that states that LED TV's won't have input lag, because from the tests of LED displays I've seen so far on Digital Versus, they have input lag like the rest of the displays out there. That is my source for stating that LED's have input lag, Digital Versus, a site where they run diagnostic tests on all sorts of displays including input lag readings. I'd like to know your source for LED's not suffering input lag.

    Also, this isn't my thread, I don't know why you think that. This is my thread.

    http://www.mlgpro.com/forum/showthread.php?t=207406
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  3. Byronfest

    Byronfest ASTRO Private

    Here. I only know this because I have a series 8 LED by samsung and read up quite alot about input lag etc.
  4. StntnCase

    StntnCase ASTRO Private

    It took me a little bit to navigate to the right place on this website. Mind you this is my first forum to ever join.
    It seems a friend of mine has gotten into a little bit of a jam concerning flat panel television technology. He is brilliant when it comes to networking technology. I could never even dream of equaling him in that field. When it comes to pdp, lcd, led, dlp, oled, crt and the new lpd (laser phosphor display) that's my field of work. Just by reading this webpage alone I have interpreted that this heated discussion is over input lag. Let me first ask you Mr Steggy, what are your qualifications? I have a Phd and a masters degree in Applied Sciences in Broudcasting / Telecommunications class 6 engineer. If you are more qualified than I then by all means I'll step aside and let you have the floor. Until then I'm going to explain to you, my friend and everyone else in this community what you should know about input lag. Any monitor / display / television that is two years old or newer you don't have to worry over input lag. This is a common misconception that gamers tend to talk about and discuss when they wish to look macho in front of their friends. As for that website Digital Versus, I don't know any thing about them but after performing a search on them I came across two other websites that discredit them. That really doesn't say anything either as one one of those sites was discredited by another. The companies that discuss input lag fail to tell you that you most likely will not notice it unless you're watching high speed motorsports or tennis and the like. If you are so concerned about input lag then why not go out there, enter the field that I'm in and come up with technology that will completely eliminate it. As far as my associates an I have seen, it is only gamers that concern themselves with it and it's really not necessary.
    Unless you have something concrete to substantiate your claims then I would keep your comments to yourself.
    As for my friend, you kind of ticked him off a little so he won't have anything to do with you now. That's just how he is. He isn't always the best at explaining televisions but from just what he explained to me, he was trying to convey what I just did it it just didn't come out that way.

    S. Casey
  5. Steggy

    Steggy ASTRO Private

    From the part I bolded above, and from Acid Core's mentioning of "True Motion", it seems to me that you guys are confusing input lag with response time. Input lag does not affect TV watching, it only affects gaming. Input lag is only a problem for gaming, and I mention that in the first post I made on the fact. Response time, yea, in monitors pretty much every response time is in the 5ms region which is perfectly fine and not something that's really necessary to worry about, but input lag is still a present problem. You say that the new TV's don't have it, but it's pretty blatant that they do. There isn't much to discredit DV's testing on input lag, it's pretty straight forward. You have a computer output a timing program accurate to the ms, and you output the signal to an LCD monitor and a CRT monitor(the CRT basically acts as your anchor since CRT's input lags are in the nanoseconds, which is virtually 0 ), you snap a high shutterspeed picture and record the differences, and you do that for a good amount of times so you get a min/max/average Sorry but I talk about TV's with competitive gaming in mind, because even when a TV test 16/20/23 ms, it can affect you during competitive play. I don't have the qualifications in TV technologies as you do, I wouldn't try to compete with you on how a TV is built or how the technologies exactly work, but input lag is a concept I've been dealing with for years on MLG, the proof is in the testing, and even the newer monitors still have input lag present.

    And I'm sorry Acid Core was ticked off, but all I did was provide logic and facts from varied resources, and he was not able to rebut those.
  6. StntnCase

    StntnCase ASTRO Private

    There's no confusion. You brought up input lag and I recanted. Now you're going to throw in response time. Not once did I say anything about response time. So Mr Steggy, what exactly are you trying to get accross to these people? From what I read your trying to confuse them just by throwing out there response time and input lag. Most people don't know what that is. I'm sorry but you gamers are all the same. Always worried about the numbers and not what you can see with your on two eyes. I run more shutter speed test and benchmarks than you can shake a stick at. Of course your test bed is going to see drop rates. That doesn't mean that you will. No human can do what a machine can in that respect. Input lag is not a problem as you say it is. It's too bad that you're not here with me because I can demonstrate to you exactly what you're talking about with mere home mechanics and can without an a doubt show you where you're wrong. Don't preach what you can't back. You provided unsubstantiated qualms that have no concrete proof outside of some mysterious website. Just because one website claims to run testbeds on drop rates and then bases the complete review on it doesn't mean it is correct. If your interested in testbeds, benchmarks and whatnot, perform them yourself and then come back here and provide your logic. Don't expect these people (and I don't know Jack from Sally here) to take what you say with any kind of weight. Until you can provide any kind qualifying proof your word holds no weight. I have proven my buddy wrong plenty of times but in this case his argument holds true that you my friend don't know what your talking about outside of another persons review. That's why he's ticked off because people like you come along and provide the people with statements and review this and review that and all-in-all it's bullsh*t. Until you can provide these nice people with solid and substantiating results based upon your testings an not some mysterious website that I can find discrediting remarks after a simple search your word holds no weight and these nice people should have no reason to believe you.

    On a side note: I found your website on YouTube by the way. Actually I stumbled across your old YouTube site where you go on to review a headset stand I think it was. You based your review on it's ability to tip when bumped or knocked. I'm sorry but after witnessing that alone leads me to believe that you have no bases for any of your reviews either. You just conduct your reviews on a whim and not base them off any kind of factual representation.

    I don't normally come down on people this way but I will frequent this site and any kind of third rate opinion that you claim is fact I will prove you wrong until these people understand that you word holds no weight. Until you do provide substantiating proof of your workings you can expect a recant on anything related to monitors and televisions. See you on the flip side.
  7. Steggy

    Steggy ASTRO Private

    Ok, so you didn't mix up response time and input lag, you had just made an incorrect statement about input lag when you said it affected watching sports. So your incorrect statement threw me off, sorry about that. But before now I had only mentioned input lag to the people in this thread, so thanks for yet another wrongful accusation of my intentions >_>

    And you really don't have any argument to throw out, you're contradicting yourself. At first you say "Oh, just because the pictures can show the difference doesn't mean your eyes can" then you go onto say that the numbers don't hold weight until I do them myself, but I thought they didn't hold any weight in the first place? Digital Versus has proven to be a reliable site to myself and other gamers alike. Anyone can try to discredit anyone. It's a slippery slope. You have site X that tries to discredit site Y but then site Z discredits site X. I'm sure some site out there has tried to discredit DXOmark.com, but most photographers will turn to that site for sensor tests because it has proven to be reliable to them.

    And digital versus does not base their reviews on input lag, it is merely 1 factor for them, but it is a big factor in our gaming community so that factor holds a lot more weight when we shop for TV's. And I've helped with input lag tests before, it's how I helped MLG pick the Acer H233H over some HP monitor that they were comparing it against, and I will be doing reviews on TV's as soon as I get some equipment I'm waiting on, but oh wait, won't I be discredited because you saw some video on youtube that you're taking out of context? There is a reason why the video where I shoot the astro headset stand is on my casual account. I showed some people on OCN the stand and they had some questions that I made a little video to demonstrate the answer to them. It wasn't a review by any means which is why I didn't put it on my youtube account that I do reviews on. It seems like you're really grasping for straws now. And you haven't proved me wrong once, you have been saying incorrect statements, you have been contradicting yourself, and you have been making no real arguments against my case other than saying "well i don't trust that site", and finally, you're acting pretty immature. I've presented all of my arguments in a clear logical manner and you seem to be getting heated up by it and getting uncivilized when it isn't called for. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here man, I am simply looking for an actual argument against my own in a mature logical fashion.
  8. AcIdC0R3

    AcIdC0R3 ASTRO Private

    Dude, you've been dawgged. haha. Not once was he incorrect. He's going to make an example out of you and your going to be real sorry that he did. Don't say I didn't warn you. From what I read he never contradicted himself once. Now who's grasping straws now. Oh, the only reason he brought up your YouTube was because of me and the fact that you give lame reviews. You go on do what your gonna do and he will make an example out of you. That's all I have to say.
  9. Byronfest

    Byronfest ASTRO Private

    Jesus Christ, Your grown men. I thought this would be fun to read but this dick measuring contest over who is right or wrong is just embarrassing to read now.
  10. Steggy

    Steggy ASTRO Private

    Well if you read my entire post you would see where I said he contradicted himself. The only argument I've gotten from him is that he doesn't think that Digital Versus is a reputable site, therefore any information derived from there is moot, which is his opinion, and I do respect it, he obviously has knowledge in the field of TV's, but I believe he is wrong when he says input lag virtually doesn't exist which from my experience, and thousands of people's experience on the mlg forums, just isn't true. You could argue that it's all in your head when feeling input lag, but that's also going to be just an opinion, and not concrete fact, because I personally can tell when a TV like the NX2232W has high input lag, and I can tell when a monitor like the VX2260WM has low input lag, and others can do the same, but not everyone does notice, which is where input lag becomes opinion based.. But at this point it's basically an agreement to disagree, because no matter what sources I will throw out at you you will try and just say they are discredited and dismiss them, and this thread is now turning into a who has the biggest dick contest like Byron said.
  11. Warbladex

    Warbladex ASTRO Alumni

    My suggestion is to stop competing for it. It's already won. THIS is the Big Dick:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  12. Byronfest

    Byronfest ASTRO Private

    Who is it lol? Excuse my ignorance I'm English.
  13. Warbladex

    Warbladex ASTRO Alumni

    LOL, sorry. That's Dick Cheney. He was VP with George W. Bush (46th President of the United States).
  14. StntnCase

    StntnCase ASTRO Private

    My incorrect statement. I didn't go to school for ten years to lose a word debate against you sonny. Ok, I understand now. You're going to try and twist my words around. My buddy's right, who's grasping now. You like to twist words and meanings around to suite your liking. They have a name for that. It's called m a n I p u l a t o r. I know you know what I'm saying is true, so let me say it again but just so everyone else can get the meaning. The testbeds or shutterspeeds, whatever you wish to call them are going to show actual results. That's what the're designed to do. They are designed to pick up slow laggy or response (laymen terms ok) timings. You (the human eye) will not see these as it cannot interperate these speeds. Maybe two years ago but not now. The timings are too fast. I can't and I'm an expert in this field. As for the findings, there not your own. You're basing your findings on someone else's work. Why can't you do the tests yourself and provide the results for everyone to see instead of manipulating everyone in to believing that you yourself made the findings. Can you not think for yourself? If you're going to quote facts, at least give credit to those that did make the finding. The only reason I said that website was basing their findings on one particular area is because you pushed the idea off in that direction. I assumed that was what you were referring to whole heartedly. That was my mistake, to assume anything from someone who likes to manipulate people. When I mentioned sports was to set an example out there for you and you misinterpreted the whole meaning. Let me rephrase it so you can understand it better. If, and I do mean IF you could see the drop rates in high speed scenes it would most likely be high speed motor racing events such as nascar, formula one racing or tennis or the like but you can't see it without help from instrumentation. With these new televisions entering onto the market today you're not going to see slow timing or response times or lag as it's so commonly used in the gaming field nowadays. The're designed to give you actual true motion without any picture lag or slow timings. How do I know this? I help design the technology. Before the actual technology hit full swing it was commonly used in sets and classified as a game mode. Nowadays the technology is there and television manufacturers are going to utilize it. These new sets call it 240 or 480 Hz which LG classify it as TruMotion. They have trademarked that name so as to prevent a standard in the field of flat panel technology.
    Until you can provide substantial benchmark scores that you performed yourself you word carries no weight other than what you say another website came up with the findings. If you want real findings and actual facts come up with the testings yourself, explain the testbed to the people and then present your findings.
    Forget about what I said about your YouTube site. My buddy had only brought it to my attention and I reflected upon my opinion. I hope this clears the air or are you going to manipulate the results into your liking again. I guess we'll see won't we.
  15. Steggy

    Steggy ASTRO Private

    So much for level headed debating.

    Your argument is that I did not test every monitor that Digital Versus did, so I can't talk about input lag because I wasn't the one who recorded the numbers from the test. So I can't say that monitor X has a 1920x1080 resolution because I didn't manually count the pixels, Newegg did it for me? Contrast ratio, dot pitch, etc.? I can't talk about them because I am relying on websites to have that information? How dare I.

    And all of this true motion, game mode, and Hz you are referring to, is referring to refresh rates/response times for displays. Which again is NOT WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. I am now confident that you are thinking of response time in displays, because you think that TV watching is affected by input lag which it is not. Input lag is the delay from when you input a command on a controller to when it is actually displayed on the monitor. Does not affect TV watching. It does however, affect your game play at a competition level. Games like Guitar Hero and Rock band have and still have calibration menus to compensate for input lag that TV's have, and input lag is just as important for FPS games. Just because you design the technology for TV's doesn't mean you game at a high level where you would notice the input lag, like I said, it's subjective when you discuss a person's reaction to it, but it is there. Whether the naked eye will notice or not varies on person to person, but just because you don't notice it doesn't mean it's not there. But once again, the terms you were describing deal with response time, not input lag.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2010
  16. AcIdC0R3

    AcIdC0R3 ASTRO Private

    That's not what he's saying and you know it. How can he keep in line when you keep changing the facts around. A manipulator just like he said. He's only referring to what you are are talking about but then in the post to follow you claim something completely different. You twist the truth. Common behavour of a manipulator. Still grasping for straws are we. hmmmm. He was only elaborating on what you claimed in your first posting and changed your story and tried to discredit him and he came back with he will explain it so everybody could understand. Then you come back and say oh that's once again not what I'm talking about. You're evading every contort he comes at you with. Once again, behaviour of a manipulator. At this point it's plainly obvious you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. I may not know monitors and TV's like him but damn boy, I sure as hell know more than you do. You keep changing your story and he keeps showing you that you're wrong. He's brought the truth out in the open now. now people know that you're a manipulator and you can't hold your story true. You have to keep shifting the truth around. I honestly believe you won't amount to much in life. If this is all you have to hold on to you're a sad case. What a loser. Epic FAIL.
  17. Steggy

    Steggy ASTRO Private

    Your friend said that input lag is a thing of the past because true motion is coming out. He then went onto game mode and refresh rates, which deal with response time. I haven't twisted a thing. He thinks that game mode is meant for input lag when it isn't. And if you guys want to talk about taking someone else's information, look at you saying you know a hell of a lot more than me about TV's because you keep running to your friend to get quotes. All I have done is learned a concept of a specification of a TV, and apply the number I get from what I perceive to be reliable sources(DV/Prad/Anandtech/etc.) and apply them into my decision in purchasing a display for competitive gaming. It's the same thing as if I were to learn about resolutions and the differences between 720p and 1080p, then looking up monitors on newegg, and choosing the ones that are labeled 1080p. You just basically spit out everything your friend says about Tv's verbatum, then when you get an argument you resort to personal attacks. Classy.

    So let's just make this simple. StntnCase, I would like to just ask you a series of questions that I would appreciate if you would answer them. So I don't have a chance to "manipulate your answers", just answer the questions and hold off on the comments until the last one, then add in your personal comments.

    Reading your response on True Motion, and how it is also known simply as 240hz and 480hz, and how it used to be game mode. Now, from looking at TV's online, the specifications measured in Hz on large TV's were in relation to refresh rates, and game mode is basically when a monitor would overdrive the voltage so to speak to speed up the life and death of a pixel, to keep ghosting down so you will have clear images while watching fast paced sports/movies, or playing fast paced video games. So with this in mind, how will True Motion help with input lag in gaming, since to me, the 2 seem unrelated.

    Now about your argument of me not performing an input lag test myself. I have done them before, but I don't own every monitor in the world unfortunately, so why is grabbing information off of sites who have those certain monitors discredit my opinion on input lag? Because with that logic, I wouldn't be able to make the statement 1080p has a sharper picture than 720p because I relied on newegg/amazon to give me that information. You may discredit Digital Versus, but there is still Prad.de, Anandtech forums, Hardforums, etc. where people will do input lag tests on their monitors and share them with the community to help people make a more informed purchase.

    So basically, the last question I have is this. Do you think that input lag doesn't exist anymore, and that all of the sites that do those tests are pure hokum, or do you simply feel the numbers are low enough nowadays where it is virtually gone? Because if its the latter, then as I said earlier, the perception of input lag will vary from person to person. Some might notice it, some won't. And working on a competitive gaming website, I run into many people who can notice that, including myself.
  18. AcIdC0R3

    AcIdC0R3 ASTRO Private

    There you go about input lag again. What would happen when he would retort? You would come back and say 'I'm not talking about input lag'. You have this habit of evading every retort he came back with. You never once backed up any of your comments. You talked about input lag and he elaborated. You came back saying that's not what you're talking about and said you were talking about this and this and that. So he came back and elaborated. You once again came back saying that wasn't what you were talking about. Just like I said before, you evaded every one of his retorts. Classic behaviour of someone that's trying to manipulate the situation. In the end result he didn't have to prove you wrong, you yourself proved how infallible your point was. You showed these people here Steggy how unreliable your facts were. You couldn't back any of his questions and now you want to ask him some question. You're a manipulative little punk kid who's used to getting his way and not making his way. By the way, he never said input lag didn't exist anymore. Go back and read what he said. He said input lag is barely noticeable in the newer TV's. You took every thing he said out of context. He showed everybody on here that your story is full of holes. When he asked you why you didn't perform your own tests and you came back with you get your results from this place and that place. What he's getting at is it's like using someone else's copyright. He told you he was going to make an example out of you and that's exactly what he did. No other words need be spoken at this point because your word holds no weight as he would say. So Steggy, there you go. You dug your own hole on all of it. What a loser. Epic fail.
  19. Steggy

    Steggy ASTRO Private

    I never said I wasn't talking about something when he would respond. I would talk about input lag, then he would mention game mode and true motion, which didn't relate to it. He misspoke, and he tried turning it around on me saying i manipulated his responses to try to cover his ass, and now here you go and chime in again repeating everything he says like a parrot without an original thought. So now if he just thinks tv's input lags are not noticeable nowadays, then you guys have not proven me wrong at all, you prove me right. He isn't a competitive gamer. But he has a PHD in making tv's, so he should be in expert on playing on TV's right? Because that makes perfect sense. And read my response on using another site's numbers, because honestly, you are really reaching if you're only other argument is that another site has the numbers. Figuring out input lag on a monitor is a pretty wide known test. Many sites do it. I've done it myself. Digital Versus is the largest site that does this test and has the most monitors to test. Showing DV's findings on the numbers is no different than telling people the resolution of the monitor when read from Newegg/Amazon, but whatever, just resort to personal attacks again because you honestly have no argument. This all began because you said new large LED's were better for everything, I responded that smaller monitors are better for competitive gaming in mind because of low input lag, but mentioned an LED display that had both a low input lag and the nice LED picture, then went on to mention that the larger LED's picture quality wasn't good enough over plasma to justify its price. Then you try to fight me on both and fail miserably, and you give a link that your friend gave you to a site that directly compares the pros and cons between LED and plasma, and you prove yourself wrong again. Now, since I assume you're an LED owner at this point, you seem to feel butt hurt from being proved wrong and you resort to personal attacks, and bringing in your friend who waves his PHD around but still doesn't directly answer my arguments. Then you basically laugh and jump around in his corner thinking he's winning and still resorting to personal attacks, but you have not proven me wrong once. You basically just call my knowledge derivative, which is barely an argument. Oh, how'd you learn Calculus? College? You shouldn't be able to do calculus because you stole the process from your professor's at school. You couldn't just invent it yourself. So now Acid, either have your friend come back and legitimately answer my questions in a mature way, or just go ahead and make another post that will repeat a few sentences he says and be the parrot again. Your choice.
  20. AcIdC0R3

    AcIdC0R3 ASTRO Private

    You don't get it do you? It's over he confronted you on every turn and you shunned away and LIED that you were never talking about this or that. Steggy, you dug your hole and stepped in it. You're always going on about input lag. What is with that? Can't you give it a rest? He responded to YOUR conversation about it and you backed away and then denied ever mentioning it. You had your chance and you blew it by twisting everything around. He elaborated on everything you brought up and you couldn't back your story. He's done with making an example out of you. He's not going to sit here and split hairs with you anymore. He won't be back. It's over. Now you have to contend with me and sadly you will do the same and take everything out of context just as your doing in this post now and I'll make an example out of you too. You turn it around on someone else because you can't face the truth. So just face it, you lost face. You're such a loser you don't even know when to give it a rest. I take my statement back about having to contend with me. I'm through with you too. Your old news dude. Don't expect me to respond to any more of your posts. I don't talk to losers. DOH!
    HAHA. :eek:

    EDIT: This is the last post Steggy. These people I'm sure are tired of all this crap so give it a rest OK.

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